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Poster: Mandojammer Date: Jul 21, 2012 6:46am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: the dark knight

"I understand. So people like me must 1) take a seminar in Extreme Close Quarters Combat or 2) hope that, if such an incident occurs, someone like you is in the crowd?"

No ring. You don't "have" to take ECQC or IDPA or TFT or study martial arts or hire bodyguards. But you need to be aware that there are people in society who view the life of other humans as disposable. The choice is entirely up to you how you might prepare yourself for the, Good Lord willing, remote chance that you or a loved one is singled out by one of these vermin as a target for violent crime.


"No. I should not have to live that way. I have a RIGHT to go to the grocery store, shopping mall, and movie theater unarmed and totally unprepared for Hand-to-Hand Combat."

ring -

I sympathize with you, I really do, and I truly hope that doesn't sound patronizing as that is not my intent.

Indeed, you shouldn't have to live that way, but there are predatory sociopaths that move among us every day that really don't care about how you think you shoul live your life. They are focused on what they want and if they decide you are their target or you are between them and their target they will do whatever it takes to accomplish that. They don't care, they cannot be reasoned with and they will repeatedly stick a knife in your heart without breaking a sweat.

The reality is, you don't have a right to any of what you commented on. What you do have is an expectation of what you think you should be able to do. Unfortunately there is a sliver of society that just doesn't give a shit about what you think.

If I read your post correctly, you have made this about gun ownership. It's not. There is no conceivable way to eliminate all guns from the criminal element in society. I'm sure you've heard the expression tha "If the government were to outlaw guns, only outlaws would have them." If our government ever tried to implement widespread gun control or make ownership of firearms illegal, I suspect that overnight, there would be tens of millions of outlaws with guns. The gun cannot be uninvented. A gun is just a tool. A knife is just a tool. A bat, or a pipe or fists are simply tools.

The real weapon in these encounters is the intent and functioning mind of the assailant. How do you propose to unarm that?

I know how I would.....

I respect your differeing opinions. I spent most of my adult life helping to preserve your right to speak your mind. What I GREATLY appreciate is your civil manner in discussing them.

For that, thank you.

This post was modified by Mandojammer on 2012-07-21 13:46:00

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Jul 21, 2012 9:05pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: the dark knight

"The real weapon in these encounters is the intent and functioning mind of the assailant. How do you propose to unarm that?"

I do propose we try to unarm that - again it cannot guarantee us safety from dangerous crazy people, but it is possible to "unarm" some of them through therapy, medication, hospitalization, better screening in schools, better educating the public about mental illness, etc.

Ok I am climbing down off my soapbox for this evening.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Jul 21, 2012 3:16pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: the dark knight

Hey Mando--likewise on the enjoyment via a civil discussion on this...I am sure that all of us in this thread can continue to do so...as I indicated in the other post, my real pt is in an entirely abstract sense, the most efficient means by which society can reduce violence to tolerable levels, given the common denominator of the ave Joe in the US (ahem...sorry, but it's got to factor in), we should avoid the "arm everyone" approach (while defending the right of really unique individuals to do so), and stick to the classic, less than perfect police state approach that's worked fairly well for 75 yrs or so (since the FBI decided machine guns req'd an equivalent response).

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Poster: snori Date: Jul 22, 2012 12:39pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: the dark knight

In view of the horrible circumstances this has been one of the best threads in a while, and I include in that Ringo's brave telling of her experience.

I'd just like to add a quote from Bill Hicks here - 'England, where no one has guns: 14 deaths. United States, and I think you know how we feel about guns - whoo! I'm gettin' a stiffy! - 23,000 deaths from handguns. But there's no connection, and you'd be a fool and a comunist to make one.'

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Jul 21, 2012 9:05pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: the dark knight

Well I thank you too. I just have one other small point here ... the term "sociopath" is misused a lot these days. Someone wrote a book a few years ago claiming - ludicrously - that some crazy high percentage of your neighbors are actually sociopaths. Now sociopath is a buzzword. Not all crimes, even wild random shooting sprees, are committed by sociopaths. Crime is not all done by evil people with absolutely no conscience for no reason civilized people could possibly understand. Or done by people who cannot possibly be stopped or redeemed. I just don't think that's true. MOST crime is not committed by sociopaths. A true sociopath has absolutely no capacity for empathy with fellow humans. Most crime is not like that - most crime really does have reasons, people snap - we ALL could snap. Maybe we can work on such reasons, conceivably, rather than just assuming we can only respond by arming enough people, and training them within an inch of their lives, to take out the shooter once he/she starts shooting.

From the reports coming out, the shooter was until just a few weeks ago a person with a history of accomplishments and a promising future. Something in him snapped. I can't guess why, but I think it's worth asking why, I don't think it's enough to assume that he was simply "vermin."